G161W-G180W-G200W bearing sets (including cam bearings)

[Poida]

A little while ago two complete sets and a half set of actual twin cam bearings were located. We now have another part number to reference and we are trying to locate more sets of these bearings. They don't come as a set of 20 half shells, there are in sets of 10 so two sets are needed.


Will keep everyone updated if more are found.

[yldgem]

Very interested still poida!!

so are the bearings labeled with part number 9-1161-040 (holden number i think)??

[Poida]

I have before me two boxes of bearing half shells which seem to be the ones we have been looking for.



They are Federal Mogul bearings and I'm yet to do a final check against the bearings in my engine. I'm assuming both the base and cap shells are the same... The 2 FM packs I have here each have 10 identical half shells. Now they are NOT listed for the twincam engines! I have not yet found any listings for twincam engines in US parts catalogues. Remember that the twincams were never meant to be an export market engine, they were only used locally in Japan.


At this point I cannot disclose any part number as it still hasn't been absolutely verified that they fit 100% plus they are scarce as hens teeth and we want to try to snap up a single buy batch of them and onsell them locally for a small profit. If the person who has them figures out what he has then we think the price will go ballistic and you'll end up paying top dollar plus freight from USA. It's been a 'tread gently' and see what sort of deal we can do.

This is what has happened with a local seller who has sourced the full gasket sets. He has no personal interest in twincams, he's out to make a quick dollar and he is doing very well off us thank you very much!! If we can find the source of his kits and approach them ourselves we should be able to buy them cheaper and pass on the savings. Chasing twincam parts shouldn't be about making huge profits on parts people have trouble finding, it should be about keeping people in supply of spare parts so twincams continue to be repairable.

[katq22]

The Ebay kits were purchased from M D Spares. A guy bought him out of stock (which I assume was the guy on Ebay) but they just ordered more in and currently have 10 in stock @ $350 a set.

M.D. Spares Pty Ltd


4 Horscroft Place
Moorabbin
Victoria 3189
Australia

Phone: +61 3 9553 0388
Fax: +61 3 9555 2751
Email sales enquires: sales@mdspares.com.au
Email general enquires: info@mdspares.com.au

[antus]

Very interested still poida!!

so are the bearings labeled with part number 9-1161-040 (holden number i think)??

That part number doesnt come up in holdens catalog. Neither does 9-11611-040 In fact it doesnt come up anywhere on the net except this forum. I would say its an isuzu number like poida said on the last page.

So I guess the part number is still secret stuff? If it was published, i'd be keen to find suppliers and test fit.

[IZU069]

It's listed on the Isuzu Owners Club (Finland) as a "bearing; cam shaft" (STD) for an OHV engine.
That means the OHV cam = the DOHC dummy cam bearings.

The first digit 9 means it's a Bellett number. 8 is Gemini & Piazza; I think 5 is Florian etc (hence maybe LUV & KB)

[antus]

Ok, so my bellett encyclopedia mate recons that'd be the G161S OHV engine, common with the early chevy luv. Some places still stock chevy luv parts, and it might come up in american parts catalogs.

Checking wikipedia though it says luv starts in 72 and with a g161z, and my mate is talking 60s. The g161s also isnt covered on the isuzu engine page on wikipedia. He specifically said its not a g160 and that it is a g161 but not the gemini engine, and is overhead valve. He has 1 good florian and one hes wrecking, so I would think hes right about the engine type, and since they are a little known engine i'd expect wikipedia to be wrong in this case. Perhaps some people around here have a clearer idea, though. Preferably from first hand experience.

[IZU069]

Oh dear, it's one of those Netters... They're still learning last millennium stuff!

If referring to the OHV cam shells, they are the same on all G-U (OHV), G-S (Jap SOHC) and G-W (DOHC) engines. (G150U, G160U, G161U&S&W, G180S&W, G200W)

I can't remember the details of the G161S & G180S (OH) cam bearings, but AFIAR they ain't the same as the twincam. (I have a G180S complete & spare block - the G180S block being identical to the G200W.)

Last I looked, the Wiki site did contain errors relating to engines and the vehicles they were in.

[Poida]

All the OHV cams were in block type resting on three full circle pressed in bearings weren't they Pete? One size fits all??

I have seen listings for OHC bearing shells, so is it that the G161S & G180S both had removable bearings for the cam?

Have a look through this listing Pete
http://www.taihonet.co.jp/e/ebc/isuzu.pdf

It shows the cam shells for the G161W/G180W/G200W twincam being the same as the G180S engine... C172L bearing set
It shows the pushrod engines as having C171L bearing sets

[IZU069]

That's my recollection - all "block cam" bearings (and big ends & mains) are the same for ALL G-series engines.
But the OHC shells are or may be different.

There might be (block/dummy) cam groove or hole differences.
And some engines had 5 cam shells (GT Bellett G161U) instead of the normal 3 (a hangover from the original G150 & G160 3-main bearing engines despite later 5-brg G150 & G161 engines).

[antus]

I recently attended the Bellett Nationals, and made it my mission to find out what i could about these cam bearings. I ended up talking to Tom Amos about the subject, and he said without a doubt no cam bearings were interchangeable from any Florian or Bellett engine to the DOHC engines. The others that I spoke to said that he would know. He also said you can still get them new from Isuzu, at a price of $40 each. Thats all the details I have though, I couldnt get a part number at the time.

[IZU069]

That price has hiked - the last I heard was $14 each a few years ago. At $40 each, that's $800 a set, and considering oversizes are not available, it probably makes a skim and line-bore competitive.

His uniqueness answer is correct.

Did you ask about the buckets?

[antus]

nah, i didnt ask about buckets.

one other thing he said was that the cam bearings shouldnt need replacing as being twin cam there is very little load on them. I know things happen in these engines and sometimes they die, but he seemed to think that should that happen and you can get a second handie or two then they should be fine to keep using. Which is good, because thats exactly what I did to my engine when I experienced the oil starvation problem mentioned earlyer in this thread.

The guy who did the head work on the head did the line bore option, and for pretty much a head reco but with out new parts where not needed, total cost was only $300.

[IZU069]

I agree with what Tom said about little wear. But you like me have probably heard all the stuff about the GW's unreliability etc despite the GWs being VERY reliable (the G161W being the worst, and light-green early G180W being difficult for its piston rings). However, when you see what these people have done to twincams, it's no wonder they have problems (viz my "hot" Gemini G161W, and a G200W head I have which some guy spent over $4,000 "reconditioning" - it was never run and I use its head as a door stop.

I usually advise torque rather than high-RPM power - viz, 400Nm@3k with stock standard internals from a G200W ain't bad.
And not that high-RPM is a problem - there are or were many racers that had G180Ws & G200Ws running over 7.5kRPM - but they aren't putting in Celica cams (d'oh?), nor L2 cams without recessed/fly-cut pistons, or beefing up oil pressure, etc.

[antus]

Yeah, they have the same bore and stroke as an sr20, and ive heard (and tend to believe) that makes many parts interchangeable (ive heard pistons...., and i have measured up the pulsar gtir head studs which look to fit meaning they can be purchased as an off the shelf ARP upgrade details http://gemisa.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=43 ). The head design was contracted to yamaha, who also did toyotas and many other of the best, which is why they look similar and flow very well. People say 8 valve is old school bad. It is old school but they are big so thats fine - not bad at all. They were well ahead of their time and totally a worthy engine. They can be put along side a stock NA sr20 and hold their own... Many dont realise this. And if you wanna talk sr20det, sure you can boost up your g200w too and get the same power with the same external mods. Difference is, the isuzu dohc is rarer and older, and thus cooler But I digress, this is not relevant to this thread.

[IZU069]

Yamaha? Oh well, that's better than its alleged Italian design LOL!


But the beauty of 8V is the low-down torque. What other engine can you double the vehicle's acceleration with a mere exhaust mod?
Granted, I'm not sure how much the twin DCOEs and the "ICCA" replica-117 manifolds with tapered bores accounted for that, but since I needed carbs anyhow (good ECUs were too expensive), that was dictated as Stage 1 which would bring the st'd 135HP up to 150HP (@ 6k from memory).
Stage 2 was the exhaust mod to change torque from ~186Nm @ 5k (from memory) to ~360Nm @ 3k.
The dyno tests were 300Nm @ 2k, 383Nm @ 3k, and 135HP (101kW).

I never did Stage 3 to 220HP which was the slight port job and the L1 cam grind because the OEM G200W pistons were only rated else good for 180HP and I wasn't prepared to spend the $1200-odd on forged pistons.
As it was, I eventually down-tuned the beast anyhow - viz: Florian; probably with 4.1 diff since I used a 5-speed 0.782 Gemini box (my Florians usually used the lower ratio Bellett crown & pinion, ie, 3.7 (or 3.9?).

But you know of that beast (the Grey Nurse). And others know of that tune - I even recall a Hobart OzGem member that was somewhat impressed with his 230HP G200W. And Tom has intimate HDT knowledge including that tune.

I generally suggested other engines for those that wanted hi RPM power. But I love torque, and it was merely for road use.
And for a $500 Florian with total cost under ~$2,000 to beat hot Gems and numerous others (S2000, V8s etc) was kinda fun. In retrospect, its 27mpg - or ~24mpg around city un-conservatively - was quite acceptable.

[nut161]

to add to the bearing info, i have the other sets that poida mentioned and compared one last night. From sitting a cam bearing next to the packet etc they do look identical.

pics:




hope this helps

[G200W]

Why not buy Taiho & forget about it? C172L (for 4ZA1/4ZB1/4ZC1 engines - as it is written on the packaging)

And one more thing, ARP head studs from S2000 perfectly fits to G_W.
208-4702
overall length 177mm
thread length 32mm - M12x1.5mm
thread length (nut & washer side) 28mm - M12x1.25mm

to compare OEM Isuzu bolts:
overall length 157mm (without head 12mm) - 4mm washer
thread length 28mm - M12x1.5

[IZU069]

Why not buy Taiho? Because they are not GW twincam bearings.

CORRECTION 11Dec2012: Taihos are listed for the 4Z engines yet they have no bearings. See reply below.

[G200W]

But they fit! The same dimensions. C172L

[Poida]

Reason is the twin cam g series was never an engine released in Australia and parts supply are limited. Cam bearings are one of a number of parts not available here. The C172L bearings are simply not available in Australia.

The Federal Mogul bearings shown in the photos have been imported. They were a chance find that one of us gambled on being correct. They seemed to be right even though the part number didn't make sense at the time. I have also only checked them visually at this point but in every aspect they seem to be identical.

I disagree about the OH cam bearings not wearing!!! I have a half set (non bearing cap side) here that I got along with other twincam parts from N.Z. a few years ago. I basicly bought the parts for the spare pair of cams and the spare set of shim caps. The cam bearings are distinctly worn, nearly down to the base metal!!

[IZU069]

I just checked my 4ZD1 and its cam caps are the block type (as Poida suggested) - they have no bearing shell. And from what I can see, my 4ZC1-Ts and 4ZE1s are the same.

Hence my confusion in my last reply. I really meant that GW OH cam bearings are not the same as 4Z cam bearings - unless Isuzu had shell bearing versions or there is a shell-bearing mod. (I haven't compared cam diamesions).
I suppose it's another mis-listing like the G200W head gaskets & VRS kits that are labelled as being for the G200Z etc. (I think that was done deliberately to stop amateurs from taking our stock. )

I also didn't recognise C172L as being the bearings that were mentioned earlier.
It also highlight my problem where I remember the nett end result but have long forgotten the supporting detail.


So apologies to G200W for my earlier brash reply.

[lowkey]

Just found this on eBay. Looks like real camshaft bearings?

Look at this on eBay:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1936341764

Isuzu Gemini DOHC Camshaft bearings Bellett 117

[IZU069]

Yes... well they are the Federal Moguls which apparently are listed for GWs.

That looks like GemWRC aka Darryl who recently posted on another Isuzu website. I know that orders for SEVERAL sets have been placed.

[lowkey]

Looking at getting a set while they are still around.

The name I got when contacting them for a postage quote was Darren.