G200w twin SU's..?

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Bradlze
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G200w twin SU's..?

Post by Bradlze »

did any dohc come out with twin SU's
cos i got one on the weekend and the guy said it came out of a piazza but i thought all piazza were injected?
well this is what it looks like atm anyway and the maifold doesnt look custom either ooh i really should post up my other twin cams as well and show off the g200w i got with custom manifold with a 38dgms weber on it

Image

Image

and my other g180w with not attached delco
Image
isnt she beautiful haha

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Post by archangel62 »

Nice engines...

I'm not sure if any came out with carbies, maybe some people changed them to sidedrafts for more power, or for a simpler setup? I know EFI is considered better, but I guess the standard computer wasn't brilliant and carbies are easier to fiddle with.

Can't wait to see how it goes, you should dyno it and compare it to EFI.

And yes, you should also start a thread to show off all your engines :D
Image
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Re: G200w twin SU's..?

Post by mikuni »

Bradlze wrote: ...and the maifold doesnt look custom either ooh i really should post up my other twin cams as well and show off the g200w i got with custom manifold with a 38dgms weber on it
The manifold doesn't look custom ay. Funny carbs too, solex? If you were going to make a custom manifold you'd put better side drafts on it than those surely.
I'm pretty sure some of the 117's came out with a twin carbed version of the g200w but I can't find any info on them.
I'm keen to see your other motors aswell. Any of them in car?
That dyno idea is also pretty good, altho in reality it wouldn't really give a very good idea of which is better (efi or carb) as so many other factors come into it.
1979 Vauxhall Chevette Wagon G200W
1982 Isuzu Gemini Wagon G161

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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah, pity about the other factors, but it'd also give an idea about SOHC vs DOHC, which would be really interesting.

Hmmm... Are you going to put massive carbies on it? It deserves it :D - methinks twin 45s...
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

Brad brad brad, some nice finds there mate. The first engine is definately not out of a Piazza. The carbies and manifolds appear identical to those used on the 117 Coupe, however the real giveaway is the position of the oil filter. G200w's out of the JR130 have them up the front near the timing case, this one has it in the middle pointing up as per 117. This means it will not bolt into a Gemini without the fitment of a diesel crossmember.

Also, take a close look at the cam cover on the G180 - i dont know what thats off but its a very early cover. It has the old school ISUZU font and says 1800 on the side, where as the later models said ISUZU DOHC. I know the 117 was offered with a G200w and a G180SSS [pushrod G180 with twin SU's] but im not sure if it was ever availible with a G180w.

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Post by tuffTE »

good old inch and 1/2 SU's :D
HIF4's by the looks

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Post by gem »

Bradlze - I had a 1800 like this type. Yes it is a very early one. The timing chain tensioner is different as well. Your one has a threaded bolt on the tensioner and the later ones have 3 bolts holding a ratchet type tensioner. Also the big silver breather on the side of the block is not used on the later model.Still basically the same engine thou. I think I still have some of these front timing covers at home :wink: .
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Post by rodeobob »

Nice engine trolley dude, might have to try that one myself. lol.

Are they propper SU's or copies????


Bob.

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Post by Bradlze »

haha yes yes the trolleys work good :) i mean i didnt do shit haha :oops:
im not too sure hey i havnt touched it too much yet there spiders and stuff all over it and on the w/e i was busy looking at another twin cam...heh ehhe....with motec :lol: rebulit 5 speed and new clutch :) although block is fucked with a rod through the side and fucked cam and valve spring thingy majig haha but still motec :) and i have spares haha lots of spares now
nearly enoguh to beat elky :lol:

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su's

Post by -elky- »

yeah i reckon 117 coupe (early) i just got a heap of twin cam parts today and a twin su manifold was in there too !!!! :lol:
TBA

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Post by IZU069 »

Based on an email I sent to Bradlze but modified and with a "carby-type correction".

Re the carby version - yes - they are probably factory standard.
The SUs are probably Hitachi copies (better than SUs, but as for parts....?). Similar ones were used on GT Belletts and the Florian TS (and I guess early 117s).
The GTR Bellett had a G161 DOHC with Webers or copies (in the email I incorrectly stated twin SUs). Your manifolds look very similar to the GTR manifolds - except for the SU (ie, not "siamese" Weber ports).

I have a pair of GTR-copy manifolds (extended by a ~25mm) with twin 45mm Weber DCOEs on my 2L DOHC (in a Florian).
(FYI - jetted correctly, DCOE 45's means 150HP instead of the standard 135HP EFI DOHC. Tates (a Melbourne mob that build racing engines etc) dyno tested my worn 2L DOHC at 135HP (100kW) at 6,000RPM (98 @ 5,000RPM) and - best of all - 383Nm torque @ 3,000RPM (300Nm @ 2,000RPM). This was a standard DOHC with 2 x 45DCOE and "GTR" manifolds and a 2" exhaust (standard exhaust manifold with a 24-26" 2-into-1 section; 1 muffler, 1 hot-dog). Normally 27mpg down to 22mpg in city thrashing. I actually down-tuned it to limit orbit times.

Note that the GTR-mod manifold has a 10-degree inclination (from vertical; less than the GTR) to better suit the Webers which don't like more than 10 degrees.
Even so, my Webers often dribbled after engine switch-off. (I reduced the float levels 3mm from spec to de-tune and reduce/eliminate the dribbles.)

FYI - FOR SALE (ToBe Posted appropriately)... I'll probably sell the 45DCOE Webers to finance an EFI conversion. Also terrific unused 4:2:1 DOHC extractors to suit Gemini. I also have 2 x 40mm DCOEs which were off a "hot" G161 DOHC fitted in a Gemini (with longer non-st'd manifolds).
WANTED - Swap else buy DOHC upright filter assemblies (not G161) in exchange for (non-G161) Gem-type forward-down filter assemblies (subject to pending stocktake confirmation).

I have old Isuzus (Bellett, Wasp, Florian) which are closer to Gemini ZZR regards engine & gearbox, hence I want the "upward" filters.
I may keep one Gemini-type DOHC filter in case I fit a DOHC to my Piazza(s) (if the 4ZC1 engine is as unreliable as Chris reckons!)

Post-edit: Ooops - my initial SU-Weber confusion may have confused the whole gist of this post... Sorry!

Cheers, Peter (IZU069)

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Post by IZU069 »

Oh forgot (sht!)....
I'm also after front-mounting G180/G200 SOHC or DOHC engine mounts - preferably 45 degrees and can swap for any of the other DOHC mounts that I have.

The original-post photos show LHS mounted starters - eg - Bellett, Wasp, Florian, ZZR etc. I will swap Gemini-type RHS-starter stuff I have (backing plates, bell-housing, etc) for their LHS counterpart. (Avoid the need for modifications and any resulting regulatory problems!)

The top photo suggests a Bellett GTR DOHC - black rocker cover (G161), and smaller rear head-breather diameter. Larger G-series DOHCs should have green or blue (both light & dark) or red cam covers.

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Post by GeminiCoupe »

I have a pair of GTR-copy manifolds (extended by a ~25mm) with twin 45mm Weber DCOEs on my 2L DOHC (in a Florian).
(FYI - jetted correctly, DCOE 45's means 150HP instead of the standard 135HP EFI DOHC. Tates (a Melbourne mob that build racing engines etc) dyno tested my worn 2L DOHC at 135HP (100kW) at 6,000RPM (98 @ 5,000RPM) and - best of all - 383Nm torque @ 3,000RPM (300Nm @ 2,000RPM). This was a standard DOHC with 2 x 45DCOE and "GTR" manifolds and a 2" exhaust (standard exhaust manifold with a 24-26" 2-into-1 section; 1 muffler, 1 hot-dog). Normally 27mpg down to 22mpg in city thrashing. I actually down-tuned it to limit orbit times.
Was the 100k @ flywheel or at the wheels? If thats at the wheels thats pretty damn stout. BTW you owe some pics of your cars in the showroom section, pronto. What are you doing in regards to the EFI setup, are you going the standard Isuzu manifolds or custom? Id look at getting 4AGE 20V quad throttles and making a custom manifold for them, should be alot cheaper then getting weber-style quads.
I may keep one Gemini-type DOHC filter in case I fit a DOHC to my Piazza(s) (if the 4ZC1 engine is as unreliable as Chris reckons!)
Chris doesnt know shit, ffs he owns a Ford now, that says it all. The 4Z is the same as any other Isuzu engine - fucking bulletproof.

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Project One - 1976 TX Gemini Coupe G200z Turbo
Daily - S15 200SX, 13.29 @ 107mph

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Post by IZU069 »

Two months later....

Thanks Nick for the confirmation....
So is Chris publishing that Piazza book? Did he get scared off by threatened law suits (and convinced that the GMH or I-GM info on 200/400 imports etc was crap)?
Chris warned me that you can never get a manual gearbox back in a Piazza. Wow - to think that those Piazza clutches have lasted over half-a-million kms! Though maybe this was after an auto-manual conversion?

Bullett-proof is more like the Isuzus that I know of. The only potentially "weak" thing I've seen is the lower ball joint - it's similar to a Florian but much "smaller".

Not much has happened with the Piazza. The engine is still on a stand (as RodeoBob witnessed this morning). I blame everything on R-Bob. I now have his 1989 2.6L Jackaroo and am replacing its engine. I also have to fix my Wasp 'cos Bob's Jackaroo had a cracked head. Its virus spread to my Wasp and cracked its head too! I've melted heaps of head gaskets, but only ever cracked one head. Fn viruses!

I still haven't posted pics. Not much to post, though I was gonna get some shots of my 3" exhaust for Matt last year...
I'm trying to post a pic of the "cotton reel" cam-chain idler sprocket in the viewtopic 83 thread "G-series twin cams origins ???" but to no avail. I changes my profile but may have to install that widget...

Was it here I was asked if 100kW was at the rear wheel? I assumed so since it was a wheely dyno, but maybe they calculated back!? (Why - it that's not what was measured?) But she should have been 150HP (with the Webers) compared to std 135HP, but was measured at only ~135HP (whatever 100kW is); the compressio was a bit down. But its the 360Nm that blows me!

Back to Piazzas. I was gonna register one so I could swap it for my brother's L300 van to travel around Oz. But now I have the Jackaroo instead.... But I'm still thinking of registering the Piazza and lending to another friend....

I still have a few months to go before eviction (it was to be last September). If it wasn't for the dead Wasp I wouldn't be rushing the Jackaroo. BTW - "rushing" for me means within a couple of years instead of this millenium. lol.

Also, since I don't log in that often, contact RodeoBob as he can contact me.....

Cheers,
Peter aka IZU069 & now also IZU086 and maybe soon IZU.ROO.

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Post by IZU069 »

And I forgot re "What are you doing in regards to the EFI setup.... standard Isuzu manifolds or custom? ... 4AGE 20V quad throttles ...."
I want to go from my 2L DOHC twin Webers to EFI. But this assumes I'll get comparable fuel economy. (Sorry, but 4AGE is double dutch.)
When last run, I was getting ~17mpg which is crap - I was getting 27mpg. But an acquaintance with an 1800 DOHC and Wolf 3D reckoned years ago that he got 17mpg! But this was the first Wolf 3D (a rotary EFI) fitted to a reciprocal (DOHC), so maybe that explains it. An EFI must get better economy than twin 45DCOEs!!! (For EFI, I'd have at least a normal and Race setting, preferably also an economy for long trips.)

As to manifolds, are you talking about EFI? If so I was thinking standard Isuzu, but I'd probably modify to 5 or 8 injector. It depends a lot on what electronics I get. I saw a Pentium card with a "DVD case" footprint for under $700 (was it $400-500?) and may consider that.
But I haven't looked at EFI in detail for years. About 15 years ago I wanted the Haltec - but instead of its $2k+, I was gonna build my own (based probably on a Motorola 68HC11 chip). Now it seems there are self-learning units with ignition for about $700.
I do have the 4ZE1 and a spare module, but a lot of its chips are discontinued, and it still uses a dizzy. (I was gonna trigger off the flywheel and have twin ig-coils, no dizzy.)

If you meant Weber manifolds (ie, "Weber quads") - I've got the best. The are Isuzu copies but slightly extended. I think they were GT-R copies, but I thought all GT-Rs had the manifold integral with the head.

Whilst I may rebuild a couple of DOHCs "soon", I may delay the EFI etc. By rebuild I really mean get all the parts and rebuild, but leave disassembled and stored until I finish my round-Oz trip (at least 1 year, maybe 10).

Cheers, P.

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Post by GeminiCoupe »

If you want pictures of your various cars and any bits of interest posted up, send me an email with the pictures in question and ill post them up for you. The host i use is pretty reliable so it should be fine.

I daresay 17MPG should easily be eclipseable with a properly intergrated EFI setup. The early Wolf 3D's were pretty shit which would explain the problems - A/F ratios varied a fair bit over what was being input. No need for 5-8 injectors, grab the standard Isu DOHC manifold. Im assuming youll need the early 117 Coupe type [this is going in the Wasp ye?], see if it can be retro fit to the later model runners [i think they had a different fuel rail/better injectors]. Better throttlebody and that would be it in terms of the manifolding.

As for ECU youve got huge choice these days. A Wolf 3D V4 is a good piece of gear, goes for roughly 1500 with flying lead loom. If your on a budget grab a MegaSquirt kit - assemble it yourself etc. MSI has plenty of features and can be built for about 250, MSII is about 350-400 from memory. Use the G200 reluctor type dizzy and set the car up to run fuel/ign.

Nick-
Project One - 1976 TX Gemini Coupe G200z Turbo
Daily - S15 200SX, 13.29 @ 107mph

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Post by IZU069 »

Thanks Nick!
I really appreciate the email-pics offer, but Poida sent me the pic-posting instructions. Too easy – for the 2nd picture anyhow!
I have thus posted the cam-idler “cotton-reel” pics on viewtopic 788 (ie http://poida.completelyfreehosting.com/ ... .php?p=788 - not 88 as mistyped last night).

And thanks for the tips.
ECU-wise I was looking at some brand – confusingly named EFI or ECU etc – which was apparently way under $1,000 and came standard with 2 maps (additional maps by adding dongles etc). I’ll have the info somewhere....

In theory I should have the time to do all this stuff now. Next Wednesday will be my happy 12 months of unemployment. And what have I achieved – vacuum cleaned once.... But yesterday I did get into the garage and found 2 amazing things. One was the floor. The other was a “black” SOHC – one day I’ll remember where the heck it came from. (I remember wanting (later) 1800s as they are the same block as 2L DOHCs etc; and for an original 1600cc vehicle, it may be better reboring an 1800 to 2000 rather than using a 2L block..... But I couldn’t remember the head... looks cool but!)

I wanted to get space for my Jackaroo head job, and find those damn 117 inlet manifolds I “promised” Bradlze back in May06(?). (Sorry Brad – though it sounds like you got the stuff; and sold on eBay etc??)

I’m trying to get back on track. I’m recovering my lost PC data (luckily it’s only about 1.5 terabytes – POP!), and I’ll either get this keyboard fixed or install Dragon Naturally Speaking, and I didn’t need a new motherboard this morning.

And although I’m still (intentionally) on dial-up, I’ll try to log in to TwinCam more often.

And as to DOHCs etc – its probably dead for the Wasp as she’s going back to her original owner now that I have Jaqi Jackeroo (after I fix her cracked head which she caught after RodeoBob delivered Jaqi here:- Jaqi had a pre-existing cracked head. Coincidence? I think not. RodeoBob knows how welcome he is here. He’s as welcome as that barbarian that awoke me ~9:30AM yesterday! lol – that too was R-Bob!).
Oops – I’m repeating what I said earlier.

But I want to “prepare” (say) 2 DOHCs so that I have something when destitute. Piazza’s and Jackeroos are nice, but I see the advantage of pre-ADR vehicles. And Isuzu’s are – for me - so interchangeable. Yeah – a DOHC Florian – the ultimate cruiser. And maybe a GT Bellett – the ultimate poser even if it doesn’t handle as well (in my opinion) as sedans, or grip the road as well as Florians.

Oh yeah – I “should” now have the time to make my own EFI etc. Despite earning good money, I never liked the thought of spending $thousands on ECUs etc – especially when (a) I’d want to carry a spare or two, and (b), they didn’t do what I wanted anyhow (eg: self learning; needed timing discs or distributors; didn’t have D, R & E (for Drag, Race & Economy) “insta-switches” etc).

I built an electronic speedo in the late 1970’s for my Bellett. I started an electronic dizzy around 1987 but got interrupted by a so-called “career”. Now if I can remember my stuff....

But thanks again! And thanks for confirming the my views on 17mpg. As I said, if a used 2L DOHC with fuel guzzling 45 DCOEs can leave V8s for dead etc and still get 27mpg, then something is bluddy wrong with sub-25mpg EFI DOHCs.

Cheers,
Peter.
IZU069 - Isuzu means a lot to me.

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Post by GeminiCoupe »

And as to DOHCs etc – its probably dead for the Wasp as she’s going back to her original owner now that I have Jaqi Jackeroo (after I fix her cracked head which she caught after RodeoBob delivered Jaqi here:- Jaqi had a pre-existing cracked head. Coincidence? I think not. RodeoBob knows how welcome he is here. He’s as welcome as that barbarian that awoke me ~9:30AM yesterday! lol – that too was R-Bob!).
Oops – I’m repeating what I said earlier.
Your not near Doncaster by any chance are you? Saw a rough old Wasp pull out of a servo once, fell in love with it but i was headed in the wrong direction. I too have your disease - i love old cars, especially anything with an Isuzu badge.
Oh yeah – I “should” now have the time to make my own EFI etc. Despite earning good money, I never liked the thought of spending $thousands on ECUs etc – especially when (a) I’d want to carry a spare or two, and (b), they didn’t do what I wanted anyhow (eg: self learning; needed timing discs or distributors; didn’t have D, R & E (for Drag, Race & Economy) “insta-switches” etc).
You shouldnt need to carry a spare, as these days they are generally bulletproof [not literally. I mean, anything will break if you take a sawn-off shot gun to it...]. The timming discs is generally a-given, but the benifits of using one far outweighs the negatives. Fuel/Ign mode is far more advanced then fuel-only - im not just talking in a hippy tree-hugging emissions kind of way [it is pre epa after all] - im talking in terms of the most power for the least amount of fuel. And the best driveability. As for the fuel maps - you could switch between saved maps if you use a computer that has the hand controller feature enabled. Im using an EMS DualSport on the Gemini [well, will be using. its sitting on my bedroom floor atm] and i can save 3 maps on the hand controller, and switch between them when the car is off and it will load the chosen map when restarted.

You could always buy a cheap, shit laptop and mount it in-car to the MegaSquirt to swap between maps. The MegaSquirt II also has the self learning feature your talking about, and A/F correction i think. Pretty sure Poida could help you find info on it. The Delco out of a Camira is also a good choice, although youd need some fucking around with the dizzy from memory and at 1000 a tune its pretty expensive.

Nick-
Project One - 1976 TX Gemini Coupe G200z Turbo
Daily - S15 200SX, 13.29 @ 107mph

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Post by IZU069 »

Rough 'ol Wasp - yeah - sounds like mine. Most others reckon they can never catch me. You're smart - "going the other way" - cute! Yep - she's got this awesome 1600cc pushrod engine with standard Nikki carby. Must be pulling at least 60HP.

The reason I want “redundancy” is the way I drive. Same for not having a crank sensor - I'd knock it off in no time. When the others slow down (due to roughness etc), I speed up. It’s better flying over corrugations and bumps than driving through them.

Even when I "borrowed" my mum's KE Laser Ghia automatic for the Birdsville races years ago, I had to set the cruise control to 130kph up the 'track because it was too hairy going sideways at 140kph. (Gutless autos!) The other reason was the not-so-good road tyres and just the one “may be road-worthy” spare tyre – I’d back off to ~100kph only to find that I couldn’t slow down enough so as to NOT go sideways around the corners because I was back up to around 150kph. Tubeless tyres hate going sideways with fist-sized rocks!

Even the Wasp went to Cooktown via the coast road (not long after I first registered her in Jan 2000). The tourists in their specially decked 4WDs hated me.
Yep, in the late ‘70s I used to play chicken with the south-bound semi's on the old single-lane bridges between Townsville and Cairns. (Bellett sedan)
I raced fellow hostellers "home" from a Cairns night club once. They’d swerve and block the road, so I went through the park. I forgot about the creek. Got through okay except for the throttle linkage jumping out (damn!). Next morning she (Bellett GT) looked like that Israel Airlines jet in "Flying High" – she had dirts & grass for a moustache. She still has the kinks in the front guards. (It's okay, I was way over the .08 limit - too pissed to walk. They now tell us that "over .05 and the drink does the driving", so it wasn't my responsibility!)
//DISCLAIMER for READERS/ - Do not try any of the above. That disgusting behaviour was acceptable only during the barbaric last millennium. The author no longer drives when drunk (probably too stoned to anyhow). Besides, they couldn’t do random breath tests in Qld until around the 1990’s.
But on a serious note – wait until you (nearly?) kill your mates or others when pissed and you will realise why you DON’T drink & drive. Same when tired. Ever woken up under a tree in a car and wondered how the hell you got there? Trust me – not nice!
/the DISCLAIMER & lesson ends.//

Back to the other serious stuff...
To clarify the my earlier post, I DO want electronic ignition – but without a timing disc and without a distributor. My original late ‘80’s reason was because Bellett dizzies were getting pretty worn and I figured I could build one cheaper than a reco-dizzy job (they are still about $300 apparently!).
That’s why I built the electronic speedo – to avoid mechanical wear issues, and mechanical gearing.

The only “ignition” problem then was the lack of vacuum sensors – but now that’s not a problem! (Besides, even then mechanical dizzies then were modified to be “vacuum-less”.)
The other advantage was long-term cost savings – no more points, rotors and caps!
And finally, I figured I could easily vary the timing via “cockpit” controls whilst on the run. This could be for learning, or to advance ignition for “Race-Mode”, or to retard for quick heat-up when cold. (Yeah – I love snowboarding....!)

Anyhow, my ig-system would be simpler than a timing disc system. Just one sensor (eg: taken from an ABS system) but with similar CPU stuff.
A second sensor would add redundancy and allow “on the fly” self diagnostics and corrections (eg: if the first sensor breaks down), and also enable an “almost direct” connection to any old electronic ignition system in case the CPU stuff failed.
Even without smarts, on an Isuzu, the system could vary timing in ~6-degree increments – enough for even a simple limp-mode hi-lo RPM timing difference.
Normally though the mapping would easily exceed 1 degree resolution. These days I’d settle for one-tenth degree. Overkill – but hey!

And these days I’d be investigating ionic sensing. To have an ignition system on a ‘60’s Isuzu that beats even the knock-sensor system on the Piazza and later Isuzus.

Later when EFI came in, I could have done that too. These days I’d do both in one rather than split them. The basic electronics shouldn’t have cost more than $100 - $200 and take a few minutes to replace. The time is in (say) fitting the initial sensors and - of course – the initial design and firmware/programming. (Originally, instead of EFI, I was considering a dedicated turbo LPG system for more power than a petrol system. But I did want to be able to go outback....)

Back then a laptop or controller was almost required. But even though they were the days of UV-EPROMS etc, I still would have preferred to avoid the “then expensive” laptops.
I’d still like to avoid controllers etc for re-mapping (that should be a POP) - even though I’ll definitely have a PC with me around Oz (though it’s looking less like a laptop now – too expensive for the grunt I want).

I still can’t understand why there would be problems with a self-learning system. Even in 1980 that’s what I was gonna do, albeit with me telling it if it was knocking.
As for EFI best power – too easy! Just tell it what your “excess fuel” limit is and it does the rest. It can tell you if extra fuel causes less power.
The hard bit is - for self-learning “real –lean economy” - determining the lean-off limit before pistons melt. But even that could be tackled via slow and slow adjustments.
I’d expect that any system would still be “self learning” even after being programmed with a known reference mapping.

I was figuring I’d get around to doing all the above after my retirement. But now it should be much sooner under some tree way out back (design & software; not the build). Then I fit it to my old Belletts & Florians with DOHCs etc. (...Along with my nav-sat, EMC & vehicle-immobiliser jammers, my IR-sat tracking jammers, air-optic communicators, etc. I still want petrol though...!)

Geez – so little takes so much writing! And I gotta fix this f’n keyboard – the corrections needed have been horrendous!

So much stuff and so little time! (Sounds familiar eh R-Bob!)
IZU069 - Isuzu means a lot to me.

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