G200 dizzy to Delco.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 23 Jan 2006, 22:28

Hi, what im trying to do is wire my stock G200W distributor to my Delco wiring loom.
My G200 has the I-TEC type manifold, i think its out of a piazza and the Delco is out of a multipiont JE camira. The dizzy has 4 wires coming out of it and the loom has 6 wires. I know what the 6 wires are on the loom but dont know what the 4 are on the dizzy. Possibly the camira uses a different type of crank andle sensor?
Has anyone used the piazza dizzy with Delco computer? Or has anyone modifyed the dizzy to fit the internals of the camira one?

Thanks, any info will be appreciated, once i get this sorted i can fire it up.

Post by **Poida** » 23 Jan 2006, 23:23

Ok, I can offer you some diagrams of the JE Camira EFI wiring. I'm hoping that we can have some manuals covering the twin cam engines in the near future.

All the JE Camiras were 2.0 litre MPI systems. There was no TPI in JE models. So all JE Camiras should be the same as the wiring doccos I have here.

1

2

3

4

5

These pages should provide emough information to get you sorted as far as the wiring loom plugs and colours of the wires go. It also shows what they represent as far as the devices they plug into goes.

The dissy is shown in image 4. You can see it is wired through a module having a bank of four wires to the ECU and two which would go to the coil. Just have a check on your distributor to see if the connections have the same letter codes, G, B, R & E. If they do, follow the wiring as per the diagram on the same page.

Quoting the ECU code (wire colour) - the plug code - then the dissy code:
B3 (black) A - G
D5 (tan/black) B - B
B5 (white) C - R
D4 (violet) D - E

Now the second two pin plug, the terminal marked C is to the coil NEGATIVE wire, the terminal marked + is to the coil POSITIVE wire.

This is a more detailed page from the LD Astra manual showing exactly how the coil, distributor and ECU are connected together.

(NOTE: Not logical but, each different model car has it's own custom colour coding for the EFI loom so don't be confused with the colours on this Astra diagram. They will be different on your Camira loom.)

Post by **rodeobob** » 24 Jan 2006, 10:25

Heres what i put up in the ozgemini forum for the same question.

Im not up with names and terms but the Delco (Camira/Astra/Pulsar Holden Family 11) runs a dizzy with a magnetic pickup and then a module underneath it. The module is "heat sunk" to the plate that the cap bolts too. All the dizzy does is send a signal and the Module and ECU do the rest to alter the timing. From what i can work out all you need is a magnetic pulse to go into the module and you could mount the module anywhere as long as its got a heat sink or similar. One thing im not sure on is how the dizzy knows TDC.

Heres some pics i just took.

This is with the shaft out and the module off

The I-Tec dizzy is optical with four slots and Crank angles on the disc. Im not sure that it would work with the Delco unless you program it to read it. Then it will only be reading the 4 slots for TDC and not the degrees. You would be better off looking for a magnetic (reluctor???) type dizzy to use i rekon. Dont quote me im no genius.

Heres a pic of the CAS type I-Tec dizzy this ones a 4ZE1 dizzy but its the same thing. Its got 4 wires coming out of it, one would think a pair for each sensor in the pickup.

You might be better of talking to Poida, he was intending on running his G180W with a Delco ECU. Im sure hes working on nutting out the Dizzy caper.
Im working on putting that Delco dizzy stuff into a G161Z Points dizzy.

Cheers. Bob.

Post by **Poida** » 25 Jan 2006, 17:29

This is a reluctor dissy.

It actually has two "modules" attached. The obvious one is the EST module with the two external plugs that is heat sinked to the dissy base and the second is the reluctor exciter module.

An EST module is not required if you don't plan on running it as an EFI crank angle sensor. This dissy is best suited as an EFI dissy. An RB conversion is better if you just want HEI ignition to replace a points type.

I've made a page that gives a little description of the basic how a HEI reluctor dissy with EST operates.

The preferred choice of distributor types to use with the Delco is a HEI reluctor type dissy. You can adapt a Hall effect but it is no additional value in doing so. The RB reluctor is far easier to fit.

There are plenty of the dissys around with the RB type internals and they more or less fit straight in. You don't need any vacuum or mechanical advance with an RB converted dissy if it's used for EFI so that makes it a whole lot easier to make.

I'm not sure if there is a suitable module to interface between an optical HEI dissy and the Delco.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 25 Jan 2006, 19:12

Alright i might try and put the guts out of the camira Dizzy into the G200W housing, that way it will just plug in and i know it will work.

Ive read before that someone has done this before, any help will be great.

Post by **Poida** » 25 Jan 2006, 23:51

you could probably work on that idea.

The module seen on in this image can be mounted in a different location. It doesn't need to be mounted on the base plate of the dissy, BUT, it needs to be smeared with heat sink paste when being installed on a flat metal heatsink surface. That surface also needs to beconnected by an earth connection common to the distributor housing. The connection between the reluctor and a remote mounted exciter module need to be through shielded cable to ensure protection against any electromagnetic interference.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 26 Jan 2006, 22:50

Ok so i picked up a camira dizzy from tthe wreckers and connected it up to my isuzu dizzy. What i done is pulled the sensor out of the isuzu one, and then joined it to the camira one with a piece of fuel tube over the shafts. THIS IS TEMPERARY. IM not a dodgy person i just wanted to see it i could get it to run.

So anyway tonight i plugged the hole loom up to all the sensors and everything and attempted to start it. We plugged the ignition wire onto the battery and the fuel pump came up to pressure and cut out. This was a good sign. My brother was dead set that the starter motor wasnt controlled through the computer and it didnt even have to know when it was being turned over.

We procceded to crank the engine by touching the solinoid with a active power supply. It would turn over but nothing else. So i took one of the plugs out and we have ignition. So it must be fuel. The computer obvisiouly doesnt know its trying to be started so its not firing the injectors.???? Or are the injectors jus blocked because the engine hasnt been ran for years.?

So my question is, does the delco need to know when the starter motor is running or will it know when the crank angle sensor starts turning??

Anyway we gave it a guts full of fuel and popping and back-firing all over the place.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 27 Jan 2006, 10:30

the computer must be getting RPM from somewhere (probably from the coil in your case)... once it sees any RPM it should be running the injectors, thats how it knows the engine is cranking, because it will be turning over at around 200rpm.

Post by **Poida** » 27 Jan 2006, 13:06

The computer gets it's info from the distributor. The module has two terminal plugs on it. One has two pins, that simply plugs to the coil. The other has four pins. It connects the distributor to the computer. Pin C of those four pins is the connection that tells the computer the engine is rotating and if it doesn't get a signal from that pin, there won't be any fuel pulses. That's the reason I asked if the two plugs on the distributor were both connected to the wiring loom.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 27 Jan 2006, 14:47

my bad, I was just taking a stab at what seemed logical... and how squirt works

Post by **rodeobob** » 28 Jan 2006, 00:08

So Poida is the twin cam dizzy the same housing as the single cam one????

And does it spin the same way???

Bob.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 30 Jan 2006, 21:44

Ok so what i done was a bit stupid but ive now modifyed my dizzy properly, i made a brass bush to joint the shafts. from the outside it just looks like a g200W dizzy body with a camira cap on it.

Anyway its running now but its missing really bad. It idles fine but as it revs up it feels like the spark is breaking down, feels like a ignition cut rev limitor. but i dont think its the spark now, we put a spark testor on it at work and its pumping out shit loads of power.

I also have fault code 22 which is TPS less than a certain amount of volts for 2 seconds, i think. When the throttle is all the way closed is it still supost to be riding on the TPS??

Also how many degrees before top dead centre is the timing meant to be??. Because its running a bit hot, i think i might have to find a bigger radiator. Im just using a standard gemini one. Do the gemini imports have bigger or 3 core radiators??

Thanks

Post by **Poida** » 31 Jan 2006, 01:00

I'd remove #1 spark plug and carefully watch the piston to see when it is at TDC. Check to see that it corresponds to the correct mark on the crank pulley timing mark. Once you are sure the timing mark is true, start the engine and WITH THE ENINE RUNNING, short the terminals A and B in the ALDL plug to set it in "field service mode" Keep it idling at a speed below 2000 rpm. Close to about 1200 is good. That forces it to be locked in at 10° so you can be sure the spark timing is correct. Now use a timing light to set it at 10°. The ECM service light will flash during this time but the flash is NOT a malfunction code, it's a service code allowing the tester to know what mode the fuel system is operating.

Open Loop - flash on-off at about 2.5 times per second (5 times every 2 seconds)

Closed Loop with fuel system operating normally - flashes on-off at a rate of once per second.

Closed Loop but O2 sensor is reading a lean exhaust - ECM light remains off all or most of the time.

Closed Loop but O2 sensor is reading a rich exhaust - ECM light remains on all or most of the time.

To read the malfunction codes the ignition must be ON with the engine NOT RUNNING when you short terminals A and B. In this mode you are reading malfunction codes.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 31 Jan 2006, 22:27

Thanks poida, ive got her timed up nicely and it runs properly now. I might just put a bottle of injector cleaner through it, pop on a new dizzy cap and rotor button and it should run a treat.

Yeah its still got fault code 22. Any ideas? should i just try another TPS or does it need to be "trimed".

Im surprised how smooth and well the engine runs with the Delco. They are very free reving engines. Im impressed.

Post by **Poida** » 01 Feb 2006, 10:06

It could be because the TPS is not calibrated the same as the one it's expecting to see. What inlet manifold and throttle body is it fitted with? Was it a 4ZE1 combination? You might have to try and adapt the original Camira TPS if that's possible. Some shafts have the notch cut at a different position so you'll just have to compare the two switches. Just be aware that even when two TPS look the same visually, the calibrations internally can be very different. The Camira PFI and TBI TPS look similar but are not swappable.

If nothing else does directly swap you may need to make a 3mm thick adapter plate that screws to the TB with countersunk screws and the TPS mounts to the adapter. Be creative! Alternatively the program data could be altered to recognise a different voltage scale I would think.

Hard to believe it's still only slapped together and not actually 'tuned' to that engine isn't it!

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 01 Feb 2006, 14:17

I am using the camira TPS thats why i think its stuffed. Im using the I-TEC type manifold and the TPS that was on it when i got it was broken.

When i made a bracket to hold the camira TPS i had to mount it on the other side to the standard G200 one because it turns the other way.

Do you know what size injectors Camiras and G200Ws use?? because everything except the injectors are camira. If there the wrong size will this make the engine run too rich or lean?? Or will it "Learn" from the o2 readings.
Oh and i also picked up a manuel Memcal from the wreckers.

Post by **Poida** » 02 Feb 2006, 23:42

Excellent. How much did it cost for the memcal? What is the ID code on the sticker? It should be AKFL2168 or AMXY0662. The second one is preferrable as the first one was superceded due to problems with engines pinging.

I'm on the lookout for any memcals I don't already have or have the .bin file for. That is for the four cylinder cars. I'd also like to get hold of a memcal for a series 2 V6 with manual box. I have access to an auto one but not to the manual one. Not that common to find the manual box in those cars.

If the injector is delivering a fair bit more per the same time cycle it will mean more fuel is getting in for the same period, but I don't know just how far out of wack it will allow it to actually make adjustments by self tuning.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:40

Mine is AKFL 2168 it cost me $10 from the wreckers.

did you know about all this stuff??> ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/

are these all maps. Ive seen another website with maps but cant find it now.

gembus · Post by **gembus** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:45

Oh also how hard is it to run wasted spark with the delco computer?? is there just outputs on the plug i can just wire up to some coil packs and ill be off or do i need a differnt memcal or complete unit.

Did the delco ever run a 4 banger with coil packs.

Thanks, Jason

G200-GEM · Post by **G200-GEM** » 09 Feb 2007, 18:41

i now have this motor. and im having some issues. after alot of work. the engine runs great when cool revs and goes all good. but as it gets hotter it starts to do some wierd things as if its not getting fuel or its starving.. when it gets hot she breaks down and doesnt want to go. it will only idle any revving or torque required and it will not go. and its very jumpy. im very confused here.

HELP

antus · Post by **antus** » 29 Apr 2007, 22:53

gembus wrote:Oh also how hard is it to run wasted spark with the delco computer?? is there just outputs on the plug i can just wire up to some coil packs and ill be off or do i need a differnt memcal or complete unit.

Did the delco ever run a 4 banger with coil packs.

Thanks, Jason

Digging up a thread from the past after landing here from google, but yes it did in the USA. Chev cavalier 88-95 (I think) did, as well as Chev S10 series. I dont know too much about them though. Only that the coil pack I bought from the states was later than 95 and its not suitable. Ive just bought a itec/camira hybrid dis as described here (hadnt yet checked these forums) and plan to run that.

Post by **Poida** » 27 Jun 2007, 22:38

antus wrote:
gembus wrote:Oh also how hard is it to run wasted spark with the delco computer?? is there just outputs on the plug i can just wire up to some coil packs and ill be off or do i need a differnt memcal or complete unit.

Did the delco ever run a 4 banger with coil packs.

Thanks, Jason
Digging up a thread from the past after landing here from google, but yes it did in the USA. Chev cavalier 88-95 (I think) did, as well as Chev S10 series. I dont know too much about them though. Only that the coil pack I bought from the states was later than 95 and its not suitable. Ive just bought a itec/camira hybrid dis as described here (hadnt yet checked these forums) and plan to run that.

I have been researching the 2.0L L4 GM engine used in the 87 Cavalier. I've got a pair of workshop manuals (1 general manual and 1 EFI manual) and I also have a coilpack from one of the same engines. I am going to incorporate the wasted spark ignition into a Gemini G161Z engine one of these days then when I get that all happening without bugs, I'll go the big step and use it on the G180W engine. I'm still thinking about the trigger system I want to use and I'm most likely leaning toward a hall effect sensor and a slotted steel disk mounted on the back of the crank V belt pulley. The cavalier engine has the trigger incorporated in the crankshaft between the second and third crank journals. The sensor is screwed into the engine block so I can't use that system in the G series engine. . It's on the list of things to do! The other L4 GM engine that used a wasted spark system is the Lada Niva 1.7L EFI engine.

mike1983 · Post by **mike1983** » 24 Jul 2007, 22:12

i had troubles with my dizzy this might help http://www.kalmaker.com.au/page12.html

antus · Post by **antus** » 03 Mar 2008, 15:13

My car is almost back from the workshop in running and tuned condition. In the end the best fix for my distributor was for them to cut the bottom of the isuzu dissy and a camira distributor off then tig weld it together. Now ive got a distributor that looks camira from the module up and has an isuzu bottom end on it. certainly not an easy solution, but it works. Pics when I get the car back. Its running kalmaker.

Post by **IZU069** » 21 Oct 2009, 18:03

The Camira JE reluctor dizzy is the same as RB Gemini in terms of four reluctor lobes.

But the JE ignitor (GM-HEI 7 or similar to above) is one that generates a signal for the Delco to take control of the timing once the engine is above 150 or 450 RPM - ie, once it has started.

However such HEI operation should not be required - merely pull the Bypass pin (ECM D5) high so the Delco takes control.
An RB reluctor can be used, maybe with it's ignitor to provide the "digital" signal (and polarity inverted else Delco reprogram if required).
Or the RB reluctor can feed the Camira's HEI for normal Camira limp mode operation.

Hence the Gemini distributor which can be modified to suit the DOHCs can be used, then upgraded with the RB reluctor with or without the RB ignitor as desired, and locked for ECU/EMS use.

Isuzu G-series Twin Cam

G200 dizzy to Delco.

G200 dizzy to Delco.

Re: G200 dizzy to Delco.