Eli's G180W

[GeminiCoupe]

I read it all and i want more then a cookie because im about to correct you on a few things.

-Fit and torque rods to crank
-Change crank bearings, fit crank and torque

Before you continue i suggest you go to the local library and borrow a book on engine building.

1st step Engine block bolted to engine stand
2nd stepInsert crank bearing shells into block housings, lower crank into position, fit other half of bearing to bearing cap and torque into place. So now the crank is in the block, can be turned over. BTW the bearings need to be covered in assembely grease. Thick, ugly red shit.
3rd stepFit rings to bore, push downward by upside down piston and rod. Measure gap, adjust, fit to piston.
4th stepUse piston ring compressor [looks like oil filter tool] to compress rings, aim rod down the bore [cover the bolts with small section of hose so you dont scratch the bore] and tap the top of the piston with wooden handle from a hammer until piston/rings are in bore. Pull rod and piston down until they are on the crank journal [btw you shouldve already fitted the top half of the bearing to the rod BEFORE you tapped it down into the bore]

Torque rods to crank. In a simplified form THATS how its done.

Then go about building the rest of your engine.

-Shine up cam bearings with 800 wet&dry sandpaper

Not so sure thats a good idea...speak with someone first. I think your supposed to go finer.

-Buy a H/D clutch for it (recommendations?)

Exedy Daiken Heavy Duty "sports tuff" clutch to suit G161/180 flywheel. RRP170 from autobarn, 44% more clamping pressure then a standard clutch.

Yet to use mine but it should be fine behind your motor as im looking at similar outputs to you once the G200z EFI is done.

Dont dick around with a G161 fan. Get any 12" fan from a Magna, Camry, any FWD piece of shit from the wreckers and fit it now. Only another $100 and your better off getting it setup to run off the ECU while you can.

Nick-

[harvo]

Dont forget to put some fuel in it bro I'll explain latter

[archangel62]

Nick,
Thanks for reading through my post - I was hoping someone would but I've been enough of a pain, so I didn't want to ask. I thought when fitting bearing shells you just use some engine oil? That's what I used when I repacked the upper rod shell. I have some heavy duty grease I could use instead though.
Would fwd pieces of shit at the wreckers have thermo fans I could steal? or were you talking about standard bolt on engine fans? The G161Z fan was an idea for "until I get a thermo fan" but if I could pinch one of these from the wreckers that'd be sweet.
I forgot to mention that my flywheel is G200Z, would Daikin make a Heavy Duty clutch to suit do you think? I'll call them after xmas.
As for the sandpaper - the bloke that ported my head suggested it, however I think I will go finer still just to be safe.

I think I'll try to have a few experienced engine builders present when putting the thing together, it all seems pretty complicated to me because I've never done it or seen it done. Thanks again for all the info.

and lol @ harvo's comment

[GeminiCoupe]

If the engine builder suggested it then thats fine. Its kind of like linishing except your doing it to the bearings instead.

Might sound stupid eli but your not supposed to oil the BACK of the shell, only the part that comes into contact with the journal. Engine oil can work but its viscosity is less then that of assembly grease, meaning if you let it sit too long the oil will flow back down. When you do eventually go to start her up, disconnect the coil and crank it over on the starter a few times to build up oil pressure.

yes Daiken would make a clutch for the 200z flywheel too. Comes in three options - stock, heavy duty and button.

Yes ALL fwd pieces of shit should have a thermo fan up front, only exception i know of is a Mini which has a side-mounted radiator. From memory the wide body camry's have a HUGE one.

Alternatively, autobarn sell a 12" thermo for 100bux.

Nick-

[IZU069]

Some comments....

Below are the numbers and $RRP for gasket kits for the G200W (see viewtopic 164) noting that these are from NZ Gaskets as supplied through AA Gaskets (Melbourne) to Bursons – it is argued that the gasket width between the pots is a bit thin and prone to blow – but since you need all gaskets, I’d get the G180W equivalent (full set) if available and only get the copper gasket made if the NZ gasket blows.
S2032KC Head Gasket “Isuzu 4” $78.55
V2032KC VRS “Isuzu G200Z 1949cc 1984 on” $173.20
The only difference between the G180 & G200 should be the head gasket – unless the G180 is a earlier model (green rocker covers – not blue)

As to assembly it’s not hard – the tricky bit is making sure all clearances are okay and that all grit has been soap-and-watered out. But unless you have instructions etc, I’d get a reputable shop to check and assemble.
For what it’s worth, I use assembly grease (white stuff sold in a tube) for bearings etc. And definitely crank the engine (preferably without spark plugs installed) until the oil-pressure light goes out - before starting her!
The crank should turn reasonably freely when fully tensioned.
I’ve rarely used piston ring compressors – in fact I don’t like them. I use a non-scratching plastic screwdriver to get then in if my fingers and chewn finger nails can’t do it.

Maybe a good after market manual may help. Not Gregory’s (unless they have improved). I have a Haines book (on loan) for Jackeroos and it gives good tips & warnings (like rubbing a copper coin on crank bearing surfaces – if okay, some copper should rub off; if not, it’s too smooth and needs linishing or machining).

As to a ZZR gearbox - remember that except for 1st & 5th gear, the ZZR gearbox has the same ratios as the early Geminis & the local Piazza.

I use Gemini boxes in preference to ZZR mainly for the taller 5th (I regretfully replaced the Gemini box in my G161 1600cc OHV Wasp with a Rodeo box with a 0.855 5th and it revs too high!), but also because I prefer quicker acceleration from standing (and getting up steep dirt hills). Oh yeah – and $84 from Pocket-A-Part etc beats the $650 that someone recently paid for a ZZR box.

I swap the bell housings with a couple a ZZR ones that I have, but there are also LHS-starter bell housings on C190 diesels (early Rodeos and KBs) and some early Chevy Luvs, KBs and Rodeos (but try to get the ones with roller bearings for the layshaft – these are stronger than the earlier needle bearings, and the bearings can be swapped to suit the housing).
Oh – but you had a 4 speed box supplied and, unless it’s a one piece box, the bell housing should be able to be swapped. (Match the throw-out arm (aka actuating lever) and the mushroom (pivot) bolt to suit. The pivot bolt side can be swapped for hydraulic actuation - all the boxes have at least the blank for it, but sometimes not drilled or tapped.
My rule of thumb – the throw-out lever should be close to perpendicular (or slightly forward for hydraulic type fork) when it hits the pressure plate.)

A Piazza box is another option but I think these are petty rare (advantages though are the stronger steel centre plate (instead of alloy) and the tall 5th gear (0.775 vs 0.782 Gemini vs 0.855 ZZR, Rodeos etc).

FYI – gearbox ratios are:

Gear Gemini ZZR Piazza
1st 3.467 3.207 3.431
2nd 1.989 1.989 1,963
3rd 1.356 1.356 1.364
4th 1.000 1.000 1.000
5th 0.782 0.855 0.775
Rev 3.438 3.438 3.402

The models referred to above are as follows:
Gemini = 110HP – 1984 LG, LJ, LS, LT & 1985 LJ, LS; also TF Diesel.
ZZR = Gemini 130HP – 1984 ZZR, ZZT & 1985 ZZR.
Piazza = 1986 GMH versions

I used a “Heavy Duty” Rodeo pressure plate for my G200W (marked as ASCO CG-006 5EL-2). With over 380Nm of torque, the standard clutch kept slipping.
But if you get something similar – I suggest a hydraulic clutch – cables won’t last very long!

In future I might get a plate made up by a mob in Sydney that – for a few $hundred – can tailor hi-pressure clutches and plates with minimal actuation force (I forget who they are, but they do multiple plate clutches for racers etc).

Good luck.

[archangel62]

Wooooo! The time draws near... I'm getting really excited now.

Got the lower end back from Chris Milton Engine Developments, the important bits assembled, bores honed, block oringed, copper head gasket made, paid $1200 all up. I've been putting the bits and pieces back on, like oil pickup, filter, water pump, crank cogs, timing case, pulleys etc.

I discovered the wonder of gasket goo, and have just patched up my old twincam gasket rather than screw around with the cut up G161Z gasket - this didn't work out that well in the end, and probably wouldn't seal too well. Turns out my twincam gasket's pretty good with gasket goo, I had no idea how great the stuff is.

Most of the G161 has been disconnected, I'm just having a bit of trouble separating the gearbox, and getting the damn header off where it joins the midpipe. If need be I'll resort to angle grinding. If all goes well, I should be able to rip the thing out piece by piece with a few mates on the weekend (doing it by hand ) and put the twincam box, then lower end, then head in!

Here's the list of mods/parts/work I'll be using:
-Copper head gasket
-O ringed block
-Honed bores
-Moly rings
-New lower end bearings
-Ported and pressure tested head
-Megasquirt II computer
-Standard twincam 5spd box (cheers Andy)
-Heavy duty clutch of some form
-Pod filter OMG bro!
-New spark plugs, patched up sump gasket etc

And here's a list of what's left to do:
-Remove G161Z and throw over neighbors' fence
-Get clutch off of Chris (thanks in advance man!) and fit
-Mount gearbox
-Bolt on flywheel, put lower end into engine bay and bolt up to the gearbox
-Apply bonding agent to head, and fit and torque head
-Time cams, tighten up cam bearings, put on rocker cover etc
-Have my IAT and MAP sensors mouned in the plenum
-Attach air filter etc, other sensors like CTS, buy some hoses
-Wire up loom, finish soldering up the ECU and test it where possible
-Put some damn oil in it! Mount the radiator and thermo fan, and put coolant in too
-Sort out fuel system, fit VLT fuel pump and maybe surge tank

Then it's straight to the dyno tuning place, to get a base tune and bed in the rings! So I'm thinking it will be a few weeks til first start, depending on how much the dyno tune place want.

[archangel62]

Update.

The 161 has found a home in Benny's backyard, and my twincam lower end is in. The gearbox didn't go in with the engine as I had a delay with the clutch, but yesterday I put a new spigot bearing in, flywheel on, and clutch lined up but loosely on the flywheel. The car's jacked sky high (well, fairly high, I only just fit the gearbox under chassis rails) and today I'll be putting the gearbox on. Reason being, I couldn't find the clips for my new thrust bearing, so I'm having to wait to get them from Benny.

I didn't want to put the head on before the gearbox, because of those damned awkward gearbox bolts. As soon as the gearbox is bolted on securely, I'll put some sealant on and bolt the head on with the copper gasket, time the cams etc.

The fuel pump is a VLT, and I've got someone from OzGem making me a surge tank at the moment. So here's what's left:

-Tighten clutch and put gearbox on, connect gearbox wires
-Do up all gearbox bolts, fill gearbox with 1.6L of oil from inside the car
-Drop car down and put a few bits and bobs on the block
-Put sealant on the head, put head guides in and put the head on, torque it up
-Time the cams
-Turn it over by hand carefully a few times to crudely check cam timing
-Put oil in it before I forget (god forbid )
-Put in starter motor, altinator
-Mount VLT fuel pump and (when I get it) surge tank etc
-Finish off the Megasquirt II, wire it to car
-Have some sensors welded into a few places
-Mount thermo fan and radiator, connect hoses etc
-Put a battery in and test the damn thing's all set up alright, is getting fuel, and sensors are getting readings etc
-TAKE IT TO A DYNO TUNING PLACE!

So yes I won't underestimate the work left, I know its still a fair bit of time, but it's within reach now! *gets excited*

[bad 44u]

Ive got a copper head gasket on my twin cam which sound very simialar to whats done to yours except ive got carbies and when the engine builder put the copper head gasket on he anneiled it. im not 100% but i think you heat it up with an oxy slightly to make it soft then torque it up. if you dont do this after you drive it it will heat up itself and go soft then it will not seal properly. but get professional advice on the exact process because mine was done a few years ago now.

[IZU069]

Sounds right. I had an aircooled motorbike that used a copper head gasket. Used to anneal it with an oxy (heat until it glows red). I can’t remember if I’d quench them (in oil or water) – though I think they’d just air cool.
The annealing softened and expanded the copper so that you could re-torque it again.

[archangel62]

Yeah, I've been told to torque it up, get it to operating temperature, then re torque it.

Should be good though, copper oringed HG plus moly rings and new bearings planning to give it a fkn hiding once it's broken in

[Bradlze]

sounding like its coming together well eli nice work

[archangel62]

Thanks man! About time too hey...

I got my Application To Modify Vehicle form back today. They stipulate that all I need to do is get an emissions test ($45 geez forking out there) and a full vehicle inspection ($80), as well as doing the work up so standards, and not have modified the engine for performance in any way. I havn't, yet, besides the head port which they don't need to know about.

I'm stoked about this, albeit a little worried as they will also be inspecting my superlow kingsprings (which I also added to the form as I want my ride height approved) which are a little borderline. I might need another 5-10mm of travel, if need be I'll be grinding down the front bumpstops and the stoppers they hit just a little, as I've flared my guards and my ride height is safe enough. But thats another story. I'm stoked about the approval! That's with the MegaSquirt II ECU legally acknowledged and approved!!! WOOHOO!

[bad 44u]

let me know how the emission testing goes im about to do the same with my 4ze1 stroker. i told the engineer it was a 2l with a 4ze1 head and its got twin 48mm downdraft webers. emission testing is done at penrith in sydney and its free. im going to re-tune it lean it out and retard the timing as much as possible. i talked to the guy today he puts the car in a sealed box on the dyno, idles it drives it up to 50km/h for 4mins then decellerates and lets it sit for a couple minutes and if you pass your 100% legal. he said any oil leaks would give of emissions and could add to your exhaust read out since its all in the box.

[archangel62]

Ah yeah. Running lean for the test is a good idea, but I'm not sure retarding the timing helps. Wouldn't retarding the timing shorten the burn time and increase hydrocarbon (petrol) emissions? Not sure about the carbon monoxyde though. Obviously don't run too much timing advance with a lean mix but oh well, it's only for one run.

[IZU069]

Retarded timing improves the burn.
When anti-pollution measures started back in the 1970s, one of the methods was to retard the timing by typically 3-degrees (until engines were re-designed).
I think retardation increased the temp hence the burn (or vice-versa - increase burn time hence temp etc).
It also meant cars and politicians had something in common.

[IZU069]

Oops -

(or vice-versa - increase burn time hence temp etc).

Ignore that - retard means later ignition hence less burn time.
But the pollies bit still stands.

[archangel62]

Ahh ok my bad, thanks for the correction