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G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 21 Jan 2011, 15:18
by twincam peelie
hey guys im currently wiring up a G200w into tg gemini the motor runs an optical distributor but cant seem to work out were the 4 wires from dizzy go to and do ??? does anyone have any idea or diagrams ??? it runs no mechanical vacume advance and the cap clips on not screwed the wires are coloured red,black,green,white it has the same guts as a 4ze1 but different looking outter the motor is wired up by a 3d wolf v4 and runs trigger wires to dizzy some how ??? theres no other crank angle sensors bar the dizzy ive contacted wolfems but not a GREAT DEAL OF HELP FROM THEM

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 23 Jan 2011, 23:05
by twincam peelie
gessing thats a no lol !!!!

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 23:57
by Poida
Hold out, answers can be slow moving...

so the dissy is a stock G200W dissy huh?? Definitely not something modified?

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 26 Jan 2011, 08:35
by IZU069
It could be the Piazza G200W dizzy! Same guts optical as later 4ZE1 Jackaroos (but not Rodeo AFAIK).

IE: Jackaroo left; Piazza Right. And thanks yet again to imageshack!!



And with connector:

The connector has the ever useful BWGR markings for Black White Green Red. Guess which color goes to which? (I'm having fun at the connector - usually distributors with ignitors etc have "B" for Battery (IGN +12V or +12V side of the ignition coil), and "C" for Coil (Ign Coil "-" = points terminal). That is so easy ONCE you realise!)

The easy one is B = Black = earth/chassis = 0V.
Red is obviously +V, but +5V or Ign +12V? I'm certain it is IGN +12V - but I/we should check...!

White & Green are hence the Ref & Sync signals. IE - one is the 1 or 4 per rotation "Ref" marks; the other the 4 or 360 (or whatever) "Sync" marks.
[ Confused/Lost? Some systems have 4 Sync marks - one for each cylinder - and one Ref mark to indicate the engine is (say) TDC cylinder #1 compression stroke.
These Isuzu I-TEC dizzies use 4 Refs (one for each cylinder) and 360 Syncs meaning 1° (degree) cam-shaft resolution = 2° crankshaft resolution - but that's another story.
Note that the use of "Ref" and "Sync" marks may be a bit arbitrary or interchanged. And modern versions of those type of dizzy might only use a single slot row - ie, the 360 slots with one blanked off to act as a REF mark for sequential systems etc. ]

I'll have to check which is which (White/Green versus Ref/Sync), but both are earth/chassis/ground/0V switching (aka open collector).
And these must feed an ECU or similar that calculates the timing (since the dizzy has not mechanical advance/retard mechanism/s - ie, its shaft & pickup/s are locked) - they CANNOT trigger an ignition coil directly! (That is current/power-wise as well - they cannot supply the many Amps required to switch an ignition coil!)

I'll also confirm the module voltage and find its modern equivalent. (Once I find Poida's link to yet another excellent web source...)
I've posted this info now to allay fears of being stranded, and whilst I have the chance. (I have been somewhat occupied the past 2 weeks!)

FYI - the Rodeo uses a similar chopper disc but its module is the other type with 4 in-line pins - the same as many other common systems (Mitsubishi Magna etc) - which usually exit the side of the dizzy - not underneath as does the Piazza and Jackaroo (and Nissan Exa turbo, and ...& ..& ..).

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 30 Jan 2011, 22:56
by twincam peelie
thanx great help if you could find out the wires it would be muchly appreciated otherwise im going to role with red 12vlt + black neg- engine earth and green and white well if it doesnt start ile swap them around till something happens or it doesnt back fire is there an allternative points dizzy you can replace these with or something of the shelf you can buy to bolt straight in ???? to much of a pian to hav miss fires all the time if the disc gets fouled up !!! i swear to god japanese are laughing at me rite about now cos they no wats wat lol :(

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 31 Jan 2011, 12:54
by IZU069
Swapping wires is the easiest...
All I have so far is Green to ECU pin #1, White to ECU #12...
Ah... White is REF; Green is POS.

You must be running the ITEC ECU for this - else something with the ignition advance curve mapping and able to decode the 4/360 slots.

Otherwise you could use any distributor. EG - the RG dizzy converted for DOHC (ie, a RWD Gemini T-series dizzy with early FWD RB Gemini dizzy reluctor guts (ie, the "RG" dizzy") with chopped shaft (10mm below the "collar"); collar removed and DOHC dizzy drive gear and 0.15mm shim & 4mm pin substituted. Or same with RWD Gemini dizzy if points are ok - but the RB reluctor and blue Ignition Coil are WELL worth it!!

The RG dizzy is often used with the Delco EFI (Delco 808 etc from Nissan N13, Holden JE Camira etc). (IE - uses the dizzy's mechanical advance.)

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 01 Feb 2011, 22:44
by twincam peelie
yea mate as im looking at ur pics its def the one on the rite is that piazza dizzy with no vac advance?
im running a wolfems 3d version 4 that has trigger in, trigger ground, ignition gnd and coil or sync ref,but the wiring diagram dusent egsactly explain were theres wires are meant to go and now ive wired it up to the stage were the dizzy has power the coil has power and the module has power but sum reason wont spark from either the coil or dizzy im stumped and as far as conversions go i dont recomend this even tho they were a factory engine conversion

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 01 Feb 2011, 23:57
by IZU069
So the Wolf is configured for the 4 & 360 dizzy?

The RH unit is the early Piazza version. It can be replaced by the Jackaroo 4ZE1 version (LHS) - they are exactly the same electrically.
They are locked dizzies - the ECU does the speed/RPM advance and the vacuum advance.

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 03 Feb 2011, 23:45
by twincam peelie
as far as i no the wolf was running with the g200w before being pulled out of a car that had problem with fuel pump(it was a stock fuel pump tho in tank) everything was running sweat apparantly the guy sold it to do the sr20det conversion and wanted alot more power computer isnt the issue to me at the moment getting spark to dizzy now that the whole loom had bin pulled out and spliced into for ignition power and relays but its like u read a tg wiring manual GREGORYS and my wires are opposite for the coil neg and positive for some reason ??? wat wires go to the coil from original tg gemini loom?
ive got black yellow as ign+ and black white = absolutly nothing thin black/red 12vlt these wires ive got all connected to pos+ of coil then a neg going to modual then to body of car one of the 12vlts going to the coil ive pliced into to put 12vlts to modual aswell then ign input to wolf 3d i can put a test light on the coil pins -/ + and i get 12vlt from both but absolutly no spark i can hang onto the lead and still not get shocked lol;) any tips or ideas p.s ive tried three coils gt40 gt40r and a brand new gt40r with the ballist and without im almost sure if i get spark it will run

Re: G200W itec optical distributor

Posted: 04 Feb 2011, 05:30
by IZU069
The guy sounds like a bit of a loser.... It's one thing to use a stock pump for an EFI, but to swap a G200W for an sr20det?
You know of the G200W's approx 300Nm@2k & 400Nm@4kRPM with NO CHANGE except exhaust and maybe fuel (ie, I used twin Weber DCOE45s - but EFI was not an option for me back then)? That was on a 117 G200W with points dizzy.

The next stage involved a slight port job & a $300 cam grind for ~220-230HP@6kRPM, but since standard pistons reliably tolerate only 180HP I needed forged pistons - and I don't spend that sort of money (~$1,200).

But since DOUBLE the torque at HALF the RPM effectively DOUBLES vehicle acceleration, I was quite pleased for a $200 exhaust and $450 Webers & $270 inlet manifolds. (EFI would have been >$2k. Now it's only ~$200 for a Delco.)

Peak torque being at 3k meant not only amazing acceleration (usually in 5th gear after starting in 1st to maybe 4k RPM), but best fuel economy at 3k (100-110k in 5th).
(And now that I have powerful ignition - namely that of the RB Gemini in a T-Gemini (RWD) dizzy with a simple shaft chop and DOHC gear (all relatively easy DIY - also used for EFI like Delco).

Then there is that 390HP turbo build... maybe one day I'll get its details. (Knowing the builder, I'm sure it's and economical and reliable build. BTW - the 230HP "hi-torque" G200W supposedly has the same reliability as the standard G200W, and they are very reliable - find a standard G-W that isn't...)

Let's hope your G200W is standard. Else at worst, a "standard" rebuild.
The number I read about that throw bearings, have high compression pistons, or other-car's cams; have been built for high RPM power (4:1 extractors etc).....
The only problem a Gem has with the G200W is it can't use the standard exhaust manifold (unless you have the diesel cross-member AFAIK). And it is hard beating the standard manifold - it takes a real good designer!

Sorry - did I get carried away? Again?

Back to yours....

You are connecting the dizzy to the Wolf to drive the coil? (IE - something must provide the ignition advance curves.)
Do you have the Wolf info (model & wiring)?

If you just want spark without ECU, then simplest is a chopped RWD Gemini dizzy. Cut the shaft 10mm below the shaft's collar; remove the 4mm collar pin (grind & punch thru) & replace collar with the G-W dizzy's drive gear AND a 36mm(?) length of 0.15mm shim (eg, brass) between the 12.00mmOD shaft and 12.40mmID G-W gear. Lock in place with a 4mm expanding pin.
I should check & confirm the shim dimension (just one wrap), and which gear orientation (13 teeth I think, hence a possible 360/13/2 = 28/2° = 14° rotor phasing difference from standard).
That can (later) be converted to the RG dizzy - as per elsewhere or as done by a few for a fee - substitute the early-model RB Gemini upper dizzy shaft & breaker plate with reluctor pickup for EFI or external ignitors (easy), or add the RB ignitor (inside the dizzy) - that required 2 holes in the right place, and a new groove for the cable exit.
I highly recommend the RB system including ignitor and ignition coil. It starts my cold car at a battery voltage of 5.2V, and the ignitor is almost indestructible - I have run Bosch MEC-717 etc coils (~4 times the primary current of the standard "blue" ignition coils - not that the ignitor's current limiting allows that!).
Note that the later RBs have an incompatible "upper shaft" for the dizzy - their RPM-advance spring-weight throwout mechanism is different.
But other than that later change, the RB dizzy is as good as it gets.
The reluctor is a proven, robust, & accurate technology. (The "great" JE Camira used reluctor after the JD's Siemens Hall-Effect system despite being preferred by many (for the wrong reasons!).)
The reluctor is a single-pole design - not the 2- or 4-pole design of old (ie, not 4-pronged shaft inner lobes with surrounding 2- or 4-pronged donut ring. Nor will it demagnitise easily - hence ordinary feeler gauges are (IMO) acceptable - not the same need for brass feeler gauges.
The pickup is the common and proven potted design; simply mounted and gapped like points with 2 screws. It is not a weaker larger coil that surrounds the dizzy shaft (as with Camira, N13, etc).
The breaker plate is a common flat-round bearing type as used in RWD Geminis and other ND dizzies. They don't wear or break or stick anything like the older "plate" type breaker plates with 2 plates, a spring plate, 3 ball-bearings etc. And if they do, they can easily be cleaned and lubed. (Even dismantled!)
Overhaul & clean the RB system in a handful of minutes. (No flying circlips or bearings or plates...)

BTW - forget GT40 etc coils - certainly the can types. E-cores etc are the way to go.
But little beats the RB "blue" coil. If it has enough spark to start a cold car at 5.2V, at 10.4V it could have 4x the energy, and 7x the energy at 13.7V. (Since current limiting applies, it may only be 2x & 2.6 times the 5.2V spark energy.)
Put it this way, I didn't bother finishing my "finally cheap" (sequential) CDI ignition - CDI being generally considered the best commonly available ignition system.
But I think any old E-core ignition coil beats the GT coils.
(The ballast is irrelevant with the RB ignitor - it current limits so no ballast is required. Though the ignitor may therefore get hotter...)

You have checked your components?
A coil merely has 3 connections: +12V to "+", the HT to an earthed splug or (say) 5mm airgap to earth or an earthed cat, and an interruptible earth connection to "-".
With "-" earthed, current flows thru the coil + to -. (For short term testing or use, a ballast is not required. Only when the coil gets hot is the ballast required - that may take several to tens of minutes.)

It is when you break that current flow that the coil kicks (sparks, bites, lights up balls [whether eye-socket balls or the ones men scratch at traffic lights - and maybe some females] etc).

So no spark - either no current to interrupt, or there is no break. IE - faulty fuse or power or non-earthed points or ignitor etc, or faulty switch (shorted points); or faulty coil or connections.

Connect coil + to battery +12V; coil - to battery - (aka 0V - chassis, earth, ground, body, frame), and whilst sitting or leaning on the car (metal), your partner can hold the metal tip at the end of the coil's HT lead.
Break either the +12V or 0V to the coil and note any reaction or changes.
If the coil is faulty, your relationship should remain intact.
Should the coil and its connections and battery be ok, you may require a new partner - but hey - you now have a working IgCoil! [FYI, I used to preserve partners so I'd use her cat instead. But then came the bluddy RSPCA...]
But NEVER test this with a spouse - or legal spouse - 50% (or less) of a IgCoil is useless even if it did work.

Sorry - did I get carried away? Again?
Maybe I feel I have to make up for the (or my?) unacceptable quietness on this site.
And this thread should be broken down later.... bits extracted into other How Tos
After I/we have the Wolf info and the solution, maybe we can extract a "master reference"... under EFI Systems?

Hmmm - the Sun is not up yet. Good - enough time to check email....